I'm someone with lived experience of mental distress who has practiced peer support in community and would one day like to become sometime who helps people more formally. I've also experienced therapy from people with different backgrounds and noticed the way the most human one has made the most difference to me.
I'm most curious about the way you describe the support you have for yourself in your private practice, the web of people around you. Was it something that grew organically? Could the creating of it be taught alongside the practice of what you do? (I'm wondering because it feels like the most necessary part of sustaining / nourishing a care practice, and your words reflect that compared to clinical descriptions of supervision)
thanks so much for responding with your good questions. "Could the creating of it be taught alongside the practice of what you do?" I think I mentioned it in the above piece but for 12 years I was part of an organization called The Icarus Project which was how I build my initial support network. Check this out if you don't know about it: https://icarusprojectarchive.org/ In recent years I've been trying to actively build a support network with this Icarus inspired tool: https://tmapscommunity.net/ I do workshops and stuff. Write to me and we can talk more about it!
Well, I'm a clinician who uses a lot of self-disclosure with my clients. I am a licensed clinical social worker who was misdiagnosed with various forms of schizophrenia and experienced 15 involuntary ECTs at age 17 in 1964. I got my MSW in 1976 and have worked at many social service organizations since then. I received my clinical supervision for licensure as a social worker in the mid-1980s while working as an Outclient Therapist at Elahan Center for Mental Health and Family Living in Vancouver, Washington.
I have always had a private practice. I was licensed as a clinical social worker in Oregon and now Hawaii. I also don't do well with clinicians who want clients to talk to a blank slate and don't share anything about themselves.
I value peer counseling and life coaching. I completed a certification program in life coaching from Coach U in 2003.
Many times when applying for work at social service organizations I told them in my interviews about my psychiatric history. I usually told my clients about my own lived experience as an electroshock and institution survivor. When I moved back to Maui in 2007 I decided to be more selective about which clients I told about my own psych history to see what that was like. What I discovered is that when I later revealed my own lived experience as a mental patient I began struggling with internalized shame more than I ever had before. I became hyper aware of the stigma attached to having been diagnosed as a mental patient especially at times when getting medical care as an older adult. That's why the title of my memoir, OUT FROM HIDING, fits my life experience so well.
I think the core of a dialogical approach is being able to consider multiple sides of something, and that includes subjects like self disclosure, or even the value of being part of and striving to live up to the standards of a recognized profession or not.
So I think it's good to know what can go wrong with self disclosure, and also how it can be valuable and in many ways essential. Therapists who are aware of these multiple possibilities will probably do best.
I think the professional thing is even more complex. Professionals can get weird ideas about what they are supposed to do or not do, and some of those ideas can be distinctly unhelpful. But I've also seen lots of damage done by people pretending to be helpers but operating outside any professional or other standards. It makes sense that what works best is people who are accountable to some community, whether that's called a professional organization or not, that has good and helpful ideas about what the standards should be.
Anyway, thanks for sharing your thoughts. It's being willing to discuss these things that helps us make progress figuring out what makes sense and what really is helpful.
This touches a lot of stuff I've been thinking about, and I was thinking of writing about self-disclosure. My previous therapist self-disclosed a lot, and when we started having ruptures I wondered if it was a sign that the relationship was unhealthy and created identification in me instead of a healthier attachment. I also wondered about my Substack, since I often disclose personal information like my own lived experience of mental illness, and I wondered if it would be a good idea for potential clients to see. I also happened to do a master's degree in a therapy orientation in a country that does not have a license for that orientation (Expressive Arts Therapy), and it does suit me, although I do worry about the practicalities of it.
BTW, I used to love IFS... Until I found out how Dick Schwartz is the opposite of an honest person, and that he repackaged the good bits of it (parts work, self-compassion) while making it seem as though it came from him (Gestalt, psychodrama, and other art therapies were doing it before he started training people in it). Since he's lying about his involvement at Castlewood treatment center, where patients alleged serious harm, and that he was there in sessions despite claiming not to be, I moved away from IFS and more into other forms of parts work - which are easier for me anyway with aphantasia.
Hey thanks so much for responding, I tend to write on here and then disappear so sorry for my own late response. I can imagine IFS practice being really hard with aphantasia! The thing about Dick Schwartz is that he’s just a human, a human who devoted decades of his life to developing a new therapy model, but anyone who gets that much attention is easy to project onto, whatever you want to project. I remember reading the introduction to IFS book back in 2006 and he talks explicitly in it about IFS being informed by Gestalt chair work. The man literally wrote a family therapy textbook and is a scholar on all the different schools of family therapy, of which there are many. I see IFS as a kind of therapy technology that weaves in so much from different schools and wisdom traditions, I just like it. I don’t really hang out with IFS people, but I sure do love practicing and teaching it. Anyway, those are some thoughts but I’m so glad you posted here, see you around!
Sure, he's just a person, and people make mistakes - but one of the most important qualities in a leader and therapist imo is the ability to own up to them and apologize, rather than lie and try to hide it. It's documented that he lied about Castlewood and he's lying about his affiliation with Harvard Medical School. And maybe in some places he acknowledges Gestalt, but in No Bad Parts and most other places he says that IFS "came to him" while working with clients, kind of like God revealing the commandments to Moses, much like the EMDR story. Not sure why you would want to support that just because you like to do parts work in the way he describes.
Although, there is still in her posting a certain kind of trust, which she expresses which post institutional thinkers are often blinded by. For example, in SF one needs a state license to practice massage (this may have changed) in the early days of social media, I thought reviews were a better determination of who was good and who I wouldn't get along with. That changed rapidly as social media was deployed, institutions and individuals suddenly became good at marketing aka propaganda. We adapted, now people learned how to say and do the right things to get/ buy the reviews. This morning I was thinking how our empathy has been captured by military digital complex to achieve what they want. Her idea of security is one in which licensing is a determiner of safety. Outside of institutions (and we can see this in the spectacular implosions of certain coaching schools or psychedelic institutions) the review is in a certain sense a greater determination of trust, however, individuals not always with ill intent, let's call it naivety or the Buddha's ignorance, learn what to say, what to reveal to attract clients. Sometimes this can lead to bad results, even catastrophic which the institutions most of us have learned to mistrust, then capitalize on saying See! This is what happens when you didn't get X or believe in Y or simply thought outside of right think.
This morning a word occurred to me: parasociopath, those who take our parasocial instincts, bred by social media engagement and use it for systemic gain. To an extent, we all do this now in our culture Most influencers would fit in this'diagnosis'. I'm a big believer in community based mental health, harm reduction and ultimately living. That IMO should not be confused with the parasociopathic personality or brand. This is not a diss, rather something I believe should maintained as an awareness. Your examples of old punkhouse friends are excellent because ultimately they are real world examples, not disclosures on the same platform promoting neurotypical idealized ubermenschen life 'styles'
Lisa’s post is also a kind of self-disclosure, but I suppose she doesn’t see that. Her rant dismisses practitioners sharing their political beliefs. Being apolitical and non transparent are not neutral. It’s an oppressive kind of politics. So typical of White women who have no understanding of how crucial it is to name the impact of systemic oppression on our body-minds. Her views are a bit outdated, tbh. Also, Sascha, licensed psychotherapists or IFS practitioners can also be “grifters.” A license or a certificate isn’t a guarantee of the skill or ability of a person’s ability to bring the right kind of support to a client. A ton of them are shockingly clueless. Anyway, disappointing about Lisa, because I have been part of her Dream School for a while.
I really echo with you sharing your own vulnerability with your client, and that allowing him to be the “healer” for a moment. Irvin Yalom talks about his own self-disclosure, sharing vulnerability as well. And there is something inherently healing in being able to step up as the healer for the other. Im sure you are very family with that as a peer specialist.
I co-lead lots of groups at the community mental health center where I worked for 3 1/2 years. Another therapist I co-led a women's group with for survivors of sexual and physical abuse was not willing to answer any questions from group participants about much of anything. I, on the other hand, was an open book about who I was. During this time another therapist was let go because our supervisor thought he was too narcissistic. That same term was possibly being said about me by the co-therapist of our group. Fortunately, about the same time there was a client satisfaction survey where many clients from my groups and their individual therapy sessions wrote that they wished the agency had more therapists like me. Apparently they appreciated my willingness to let them get to know me as a real person instead of some kind of weird blank slate!
I was recruited by the head of the social planning track. Possibly the School of Social Work didn't want me to be in the direct service track. I was fortunate to have the opportunity to work in a mental health setting where I had weekly individual and group supervision that allowed me to become a licensed social worker in the 1980s.
When I was a court committed patient at State Hospital North in Orofino, Idaho in 1966 I saw a psychologist weekly who had the annoying habit of saying, "I don't know, what do you think?" I guess this was his version of being a blank slate. After awhile he finally started talking to me about his problems which felt a bit weird at the time...like a kind of role reversal or something. As I wasn't officially his therapist, I didn't blame myself for his suicide when I got a letter from a patient friend this had happened a few years after I was officially discharged from the institution.
I'm someone with lived experience of mental distress who has practiced peer support in community and would one day like to become sometime who helps people more formally. I've also experienced therapy from people with different backgrounds and noticed the way the most human one has made the most difference to me.
I'm most curious about the way you describe the support you have for yourself in your private practice, the web of people around you. Was it something that grew organically? Could the creating of it be taught alongside the practice of what you do? (I'm wondering because it feels like the most necessary part of sustaining / nourishing a care practice, and your words reflect that compared to clinical descriptions of supervision)
thanks so much for responding with your good questions. "Could the creating of it be taught alongside the practice of what you do?" I think I mentioned it in the above piece but for 12 years I was part of an organization called The Icarus Project which was how I build my initial support network. Check this out if you don't know about it: https://icarusprojectarchive.org/ In recent years I've been trying to actively build a support network with this Icarus inspired tool: https://tmapscommunity.net/ I do workshops and stuff. Write to me and we can talk more about it!
Well, I'm a clinician who uses a lot of self-disclosure with my clients. I am a licensed clinical social worker who was misdiagnosed with various forms of schizophrenia and experienced 15 involuntary ECTs at age 17 in 1964. I got my MSW in 1976 and have worked at many social service organizations since then. I received my clinical supervision for licensure as a social worker in the mid-1980s while working as an Outclient Therapist at Elahan Center for Mental Health and Family Living in Vancouver, Washington.
I have always had a private practice. I was licensed as a clinical social worker in Oregon and now Hawaii. I also don't do well with clinicians who want clients to talk to a blank slate and don't share anything about themselves.
I value peer counseling and life coaching. I completed a certification program in life coaching from Coach U in 2003.
Many times when applying for work at social service organizations I told them in my interviews about my psychiatric history. I usually told my clients about my own lived experience as an electroshock and institution survivor. When I moved back to Maui in 2007 I decided to be more selective about which clients I told about my own psych history to see what that was like. What I discovered is that when I later revealed my own lived experience as a mental patient I began struggling with internalized shame more than I ever had before. I became hyper aware of the stigma attached to having been diagnosed as a mental patient especially at times when getting medical care as an older adult. That's why the title of my memoir, OUT FROM HIDING, fits my life experience so well.
How do I reach you?
https://www.saschadubrul.com/
I think the core of a dialogical approach is being able to consider multiple sides of something, and that includes subjects like self disclosure, or even the value of being part of and striving to live up to the standards of a recognized profession or not.
So I think it's good to know what can go wrong with self disclosure, and also how it can be valuable and in many ways essential. Therapists who are aware of these multiple possibilities will probably do best.
I think the professional thing is even more complex. Professionals can get weird ideas about what they are supposed to do or not do, and some of those ideas can be distinctly unhelpful. But I've also seen lots of damage done by people pretending to be helpers but operating outside any professional or other standards. It makes sense that what works best is people who are accountable to some community, whether that's called a professional organization or not, that has good and helpful ideas about what the standards should be.
Anyway, thanks for sharing your thoughts. It's being willing to discuss these things that helps us make progress figuring out what makes sense and what really is helpful.
This touches a lot of stuff I've been thinking about, and I was thinking of writing about self-disclosure. My previous therapist self-disclosed a lot, and when we started having ruptures I wondered if it was a sign that the relationship was unhealthy and created identification in me instead of a healthier attachment. I also wondered about my Substack, since I often disclose personal information like my own lived experience of mental illness, and I wondered if it would be a good idea for potential clients to see. I also happened to do a master's degree in a therapy orientation in a country that does not have a license for that orientation (Expressive Arts Therapy), and it does suit me, although I do worry about the practicalities of it.
BTW, I used to love IFS... Until I found out how Dick Schwartz is the opposite of an honest person, and that he repackaged the good bits of it (parts work, self-compassion) while making it seem as though it came from him (Gestalt, psychodrama, and other art therapies were doing it before he started training people in it). Since he's lying about his involvement at Castlewood treatment center, where patients alleged serious harm, and that he was there in sessions despite claiming not to be, I moved away from IFS and more into other forms of parts work - which are easier for me anyway with aphantasia.
Hey thanks so much for responding, I tend to write on here and then disappear so sorry for my own late response. I can imagine IFS practice being really hard with aphantasia! The thing about Dick Schwartz is that he’s just a human, a human who devoted decades of his life to developing a new therapy model, but anyone who gets that much attention is easy to project onto, whatever you want to project. I remember reading the introduction to IFS book back in 2006 and he talks explicitly in it about IFS being informed by Gestalt chair work. The man literally wrote a family therapy textbook and is a scholar on all the different schools of family therapy, of which there are many. I see IFS as a kind of therapy technology that weaves in so much from different schools and wisdom traditions, I just like it. I don’t really hang out with IFS people, but I sure do love practicing and teaching it. Anyway, those are some thoughts but I’m so glad you posted here, see you around!
Sure, he's just a person, and people make mistakes - but one of the most important qualities in a leader and therapist imo is the ability to own up to them and apologize, rather than lie and try to hide it. It's documented that he lied about Castlewood and he's lying about his affiliation with Harvard Medical School. And maybe in some places he acknowledges Gestalt, but in No Bad Parts and most other places he says that IFS "came to him" while working with clients, kind of like God revealing the commandments to Moses, much like the EMDR story. Not sure why you would want to support that just because you like to do parts work in the way he describes.
Yup
Although, there is still in her posting a certain kind of trust, which she expresses which post institutional thinkers are often blinded by. For example, in SF one needs a state license to practice massage (this may have changed) in the early days of social media, I thought reviews were a better determination of who was good and who I wouldn't get along with. That changed rapidly as social media was deployed, institutions and individuals suddenly became good at marketing aka propaganda. We adapted, now people learned how to say and do the right things to get/ buy the reviews. This morning I was thinking how our empathy has been captured by military digital complex to achieve what they want. Her idea of security is one in which licensing is a determiner of safety. Outside of institutions (and we can see this in the spectacular implosions of certain coaching schools or psychedelic institutions) the review is in a certain sense a greater determination of trust, however, individuals not always with ill intent, let's call it naivety or the Buddha's ignorance, learn what to say, what to reveal to attract clients. Sometimes this can lead to bad results, even catastrophic which the institutions most of us have learned to mistrust, then capitalize on saying See! This is what happens when you didn't get X or believe in Y or simply thought outside of right think.
This morning a word occurred to me: parasociopath, those who take our parasocial instincts, bred by social media engagement and use it for systemic gain. To an extent, we all do this now in our culture Most influencers would fit in this'diagnosis'. I'm a big believer in community based mental health, harm reduction and ultimately living. That IMO should not be confused with the parasociopathic personality or brand. This is not a diss, rather something I believe should maintained as an awareness. Your examples of old punkhouse friends are excellent because ultimately they are real world examples, not disclosures on the same platform promoting neurotypical idealized ubermenschen life 'styles'
Lisa’s post is also a kind of self-disclosure, but I suppose she doesn’t see that. Her rant dismisses practitioners sharing their political beliefs. Being apolitical and non transparent are not neutral. It’s an oppressive kind of politics. So typical of White women who have no understanding of how crucial it is to name the impact of systemic oppression on our body-minds. Her views are a bit outdated, tbh. Also, Sascha, licensed psychotherapists or IFS practitioners can also be “grifters.” A license or a certificate isn’t a guarantee of the skill or ability of a person’s ability to bring the right kind of support to a client. A ton of them are shockingly clueless. Anyway, disappointing about Lisa, because I have been part of her Dream School for a while.
I really echo with you sharing your own vulnerability with your client, and that allowing him to be the “healer” for a moment. Irvin Yalom talks about his own self-disclosure, sharing vulnerability as well. And there is something inherently healing in being able to step up as the healer for the other. Im sure you are very family with that as a peer specialist.
Solid
I co-lead lots of groups at the community mental health center where I worked for 3 1/2 years. Another therapist I co-led a women's group with for survivors of sexual and physical abuse was not willing to answer any questions from group participants about much of anything. I, on the other hand, was an open book about who I was. During this time another therapist was let go because our supervisor thought he was too narcissistic. That same term was possibly being said about me by the co-therapist of our group. Fortunately, about the same time there was a client satisfaction survey where many clients from my groups and their individual therapy sessions wrote that they wished the agency had more therapists like me. Apparently they appreciated my willingness to let them get to know me as a real person instead of some kind of weird blank slate!
I was recruited by the head of the social planning track. Possibly the School of Social Work didn't want me to be in the direct service track. I was fortunate to have the opportunity to work in a mental health setting where I had weekly individual and group supervision that allowed me to become a licensed social worker in the 1980s.
When I was a court committed patient at State Hospital North in Orofino, Idaho in 1966 I saw a psychologist weekly who had the annoying habit of saying, "I don't know, what do you think?" I guess this was his version of being a blank slate. After awhile he finally started talking to me about his problems which felt a bit weird at the time...like a kind of role reversal or something. As I wasn't officially his therapist, I didn't blame myself for his suicide when I got a letter from a patient friend this had happened a few years after I was officially discharged from the institution.